So. The non-casting classes need some love. I am bored.
Most of the classes are less than 60 xp per level. Mage is 45 to 55 per level, priest is 35 + 4 * Devotion per level, Warrior is 53 per level. The system is such that you pretty well either multiclass or double-buy. I do not want to create skills for the sake of it; I am not worried if I do not fill 60xp with a class, though I would rather not create it at less than 50.
Added Concept: Light Armour. Light armour is any armour granting 1 or 2 points of armour per location, by design rather than ref fiat. That is to say, poor quality heavy armour physreps granting 2 points of armour do not count as light armour.
Added Concept: Miscellaneous Action. A miscellaneous action is any action which takes your entire concentration, has a mechanical effect, and takes a defined time to complete. It is interrupted by taking any call whatsoever, ceasing to physrep the activity represented by the action, or taking any other action more than talking distractedly. It is not compatible with movement or parrying in combat. Examples of miscellaneous actions would be armour repair, knot tying, First Aid II+ and many rites.
Added Rule: DAC regeneration. DAC is regenerated in its entirety by taking a 60 second miscellaneous action to get your breath back and relax.
- Warrior as before, except:
- Remove Targeteer. Replace with:
- Missile Competency (10, requires Warrior or Subterfuge of twice level)
- I. You may do your choice of natural SINGLE THROUGH with one of bow or crossbow or natural SINGLE with thrown weapons.
- II. You may do natural SINGLE THROUGH with both bow and crossbow and SINGLE with thrown weapons.
- Modify Melee 5, 6 and 7 as follows:
- V. One of the following: Natural DOUBLE by single-handed weapon if carrying a shield, natural DOUBLE by two-handed weapon, or natural DOUBLE by all single-handed weapons if not carrying a shield.
- VI. Another of those.
- VII. The third one of those.
- Ranger (10) You have extensive experience of fending for yourself outside of civilisation. Class skill.
- Weapon Competency (10, requires Ranger of level +1)
- I: As Melee I.
- II: Either provides SINGLE competency with all one-handed weapons or provides SINGLE competency with a staff.
- III: As Melee II.
- Ambidexterity (10, requires Weapon Competency II)
- This skill provides the ability to do natural SINGLE with an off-hand weapon if the character could do SINGLE with it in their on hand.
- Targeteer (4; requires Ranger of equal level)
- Levels I->III as currently
- IV: You apply the lessons learned with your favoured weapon to all others. You may do Double Through with both bow and crossbow.
- V: As currently
- VI: You extend your mastery until it covers all ranged weapons. You may do Triple Through with both bow and crossbow.
- VII: As currently
- Fitness (as currently; requires Ranger of equal level)
- Agility (5xp; DAC skill usable only in light or no armour; requires Wilderness of equal level)
- Light Armour (as current Scout Armour skill)
- Fur and Leather Hardening (as currently; may create 3-point armour counting as 2-point armour)
- Camouflage (6; requires Ranger or Subterfuge of twice level - 1)
- I: You can hide yourself within a terrain feature given suitable camouflage. You must go to the edge of the terrain feature, assume 'hidden' position and perform a 60 second miscellaneous action of 'hiding yourself'; you are then hidden within the terrain feature and are invisible as per invisibility rules. You may move freely around the edge of (and through) this terrain feature up to the limits of physrepping. If you move more than two metres from the terrain feature this breaks invisibility. Being watched while concealing yourself is not enough to prevent you hiding; you must be interrupted as per any other miscellaneous action. A terrain feature is defined as an inanimate object or plant large enough to physically hide you. Two terrain features are considered separate features (and thus moving between them requires you making yourself visible while you hide yourself in the new one) if they are physically separated by more than a metre.
- II: As I, but 30 seconds
- III: As I, but 10 seconds
- IV: As I, but 3 seconds
- Ambush (10; requires Ranger of twice level)
- I: You may deal +1 degree of damage when making an attack that breaks invisibility.
- II: You may deal +2 degrees of damage when making an attack that breaks invisibility.
- III: You may deal +3 degrees of damage when making an attack that breaks invisibility.
- IV: You may deal +4 degrees of damage when making an attack that breaks invisibility.
- Track (6; requires Ranger of twice level)
- I: You can track things that would normally leave tracks and are taking only moderate or insufficiently trained precautions against being tracked, in the wilderness only. You may not track competently in the city. You may conceal your tracks from anyone with Track I, 2nd level spells or below. You can recognise the method used to defeat your tracking if you cannot track something, unless Track II+ or equivalent is used to defeat your skill in which case you do not even see covered tracks.
- II: You can track things that would normally leave tracks and are taking only moderate or insufficiently trained precautions against being tracked, anywhere on the surface of the Material Plane. You may conceal your tracks from anyone with Track II, 4th level spells or below. You can recognise the method used to defeat your tracking if you cannot track something, unless Track III+ or equivalent is used to defeat your skill in which case you do not even see covered tracks.
- III: You can track anything that is not capable of becoming incorporeal or teleporting and is taking only moderate or insufficiently trained precautions against being tracked, anywhere on the Material Plane. You may conceal your tracks from anyone with Track III, 6th level spells or below. You can recognise the method used to defeat your tracking if you cannot track something, unless Track IV or equivalent is used to defeat your skill in which case you do not even see covered tracks.
- IV: You can track anything that exists, anywhere that you can follow - and if you can't follow, you know where they went. You may conceal your tracks such that nothing short of divine intervention or the direct action of an elemental lord can follow them. If you cannot track something, you will know what covered the tracks (and probably where it came from, and where it went).
- Recognise Scent (3; requires Ranger of same level)
- Each level allows you to recognise the scent of five races you have met. You may call 'WIDE DETECT [Race]' or '[Target] DETECT [Race]' for any of these. This may provide additional bonuses to tracking.
- DETECT [Race]] does not break invisibility, whether granted by spell or concealment.
- Conceal Scent (3; requires Camouflage II)
- You may conceal your scent, allowing you to not answer to DETECT [Race] where you otherwise would.
- Wilderness Lore (10; requires Ranger II): You have learned some of the lessons that the wilds have to teach. You can tie knots that cannot be undone without magic or similar skill, by a 30 second miscellaneous action. You can navigate by sun and stars, and start fires even in very poor conditions. These things are mostly flavour effects. You also know the lore of many strange beasts and can often identify creatures that others cannot - you get a player guide with basic details about monsters you might meet, along with an OOC briefing where you are shown the physreps, much like Undeath Lore.
- Advanced Wilderness Lore (10; requires Ranger V): You have learned much of what the wilds can teach, and they are much more of a home to you than any house can be. You can find good food, drink, shelter and so on in any wilderness on this or any similar plane. You know much about monsters and strange beasts, and get an updated Wilderness Lore guide and briefing along with a good idea of what a given monster is capable of in terms of hits and damage. You automatically benefit from good and secure living conditions for free.
- Master of the Wild (10; requires Ranger VIII): You know all the lore of wilderness and travel, of this or any other plane. You can find your way to or from any location on any plane that is accessible from the one you are standing on, taking short cuts through Shallowings and the like as required. You can find good food, drink, shelter and so on in any situation no matter how remote. If a monster appears that you do not know about, that means that it is probably hitherto unknown to all civilised races.
- Herb Lore N (12; requires Ranger of level N): You gain potion slots as if you had level N of the Alchemical Practice skill. This skill does *not* substitute for Alchemical Training, Theory or Practice in any other fashion. You may add 1 to either the potency or concentration of a potion (but not both) by adding 1 to its slot rank. You may use a potion slot to find herbs of the same rank as the slot you use. You gain for free your choice of one herb of any level you can gather per level of this skill per week.
- Herbal Medicine (6; requires Herb Lore 1): You may create healing potions (and only healing potions) as gels, and apply any gel you have made yourself.
- Apply Gel (6; requires Herb Lore 2 or Streetfighter 3) You may apply alchemical gels as if you were an alchemist.
TOTAL COST ONE LEVEL:
Variable from about 30 to about 75-80. Many non-treed skills.
- Subterfuge (15) Class skill. You have extensive experience of fending for yourself on the mean streets of the city.
- Streetfighter (5; requires Subterfuge of equal level)
- As current up to 4.
- V: You know the vulnerable spots on most humanoid races, allowing you to deal significant damage with a precise stroke. If you can strike the back of the torso of a living humanoid (that is, not a magical or spiritual being, not undead, but including demons) with a weapon of 36" or less, the strike being delivered from behind the opponent, you may call natural TRIPLE THROUGH regardless of your standard damage call; this is modified by damage adders as per normal but not by, for example, Melee V. This may be done no more than once per opponent per encounter, mostly for balance issues but the IC explanation is that people only have one spleen. It is you, not your opponent, who determines whether the strike was from behind them.
- VI: You know the pressure points on most humanoid races, allowing you to render any unresisting humanoid unconscious with but a tap on the right point. If you can strike the head of an unresisting or restrained (HALT is insufficient restraint, but FREEZE is sufficient) or otherwise vulnerable target with a weapon of 36" or less, you may call DROP - their head is reduced to 0 hits by subdual damage.
- Missile Competency (10, requires Warrior or Subterfuge of twice level)
- I. You may do your choice of natural SINGLE THROUGH with one of bow or crossbow or natural SINGLE with thrown weapons.
- II. You may do natural SINGLE THROUGH with both bow and crossbow and SINGLE with thrown weapons.
- Brawling (2xp; as currently)
- Light Armour (as current Scout Armour skill)
- Agility (5xp; DAC skill usable only in light or no armour; requires Wilderness or Subterfuge of equal level)
- Uncanny Dodge (5xp; DAC skill usable only in light or no armour; stacks with Agility; requires Subterfuge of equal level)
- Conceal Item (5xp; requires Subterfuge of twice level)
- I: You may conceal up to two daggers or coshes about your person; they are not visible to body searches. The weapons must actually be physically hidden.
- II: You may conceal up to three items of less than 18" in any dimension about your person; they are not visible to body searches. They must actually be physically hidden.
- III: You may conceal any number of items of any size about your person, so long as you can physically hide them.
- Pickpocket (15; requires Conceal Item II)
- You are schooled in the art of lifting something from someone's pocket. If you can touch a pocket or an unsecured item on someone's person without them noticing and objecting, you can notify a ref and have them remove it from them and later hand it secretly to you. If the item is too large to conceal, you cannot steal it.
- Disguise (6xp; requires Subterfuge of twice level - 1)
- I. You acquire one alias, which must be the same race and gender as yourself.
- II. You have three aliases as above.
- III. You have an unlimited number of aliases, as current Disguise I.
- IV. As current Disguise II. You may not change your response to magical or spiritual enquiry without supernatural effects which allow this. You do, however, respond as the race you are disguised as to DETECT [Race].
- New concept: "alias". An alias is treated as another character in most respects except that it is actually you; that is, the alias has a different name, wears different kit and may or may not act differently, but has the same skills, knowledge and resources and is played by the same person as the original character. Changing between aliases requires ten minutes and access to your wardrobe.
- Camouflage (6; requires Ranger or Subterfuge of twice level - 1)
- I: You can hide yourself within a terrain feature given suitable camouflage. You must go to the edge of the terrain feature, assume 'hidden' position and perform a 60 second miscellaneous action of 'hiding yourself'; you are then hidden within the terrain feature and are invisible as per invisibility rules. You may move freely around the edge of (and through) this terrain feature up to the limits of physrepping. If you move more than two metres from the terrain feature this breaks invisibility. Being watched while concealing yourself is not enough to prevent you hiding; you must be interrupted as per any other miscellaneous action. A terrain feature is defined as an inanimate object or plant large enough to physically hide you. Two terrain features are considered separate features (and thus moving between them requires you making yourself visible while you hide yourself in the new one) if they are physically separated by more than a metre.
- II: As I, but 30 seconds
- III: As I, but 10 seconds
- IV: As I, but 3 seconds
- Conceal Scent (3; requires Camouflage II)
- You may conceal your scent, allowing you to not answer to DETECT [Race] where you otherwise would.
- Forgery (10; requires Subterfuge of three times level)
- I: You can create a good facsimile of a written document, given the same type of paper, a pen and some ink, and a good bit of time. It'll work on anyone who hasn't seen the original, and should work on most people who have unless they're looking closely. You can make very good fake documents without having seen any kind of original, but they won't work on anyone who knows what the real thing is supposed to look like. You can also recognise any fake document as a forgery with little difficulty.
- II: You are a master forger. Your copies are entirely indistinguishable from the real thing, even to most magical analysis; unless the original is on hand people will not believe that the copy is not the real thing, and they'd have to do some serious tests to tell the real from the fake. Without an original document, you can make believable copies of the handwriting and signature of anyone you've met and talked to for a while; they'd work much like Forgery I copies of original documents.
- Use Gel (requires Herb Lore 1 or Subterfuge 3): You may use alchemical gels.
- Use Poison (requires Subterfuge 3): You may apply alchemical poisons to weapons without poisoning yourself.
TOTAL COST ONE LEVEL:
Variable from about 42 to 75-80. Many non-treed skills.
Comments?
- If damage always breaks the 'hiding halt', rather than the person standing there chosing to stop trying to hide and defend themselves, there should be some way to break the 'hiding halt' other than doing damage. For instance, Charridy can't do damage, but she could quite happily stand there next to hiding person pointing at them and yelling "There's someone trying to hide here! They're wriggling into the bushes! Look out, they're trying to hide here!" which seems to be just as likely to break their hiding attempt as someone coming up to them and swatting them on the arm for half. If, however, the restriction was just that they have to stand there for n seconds (it doesn't need to be a standard call because it's a do-it-to-yourself effect) and they can ignore someone doing a half to them if they're almost hidden and think they can get away with it, it would make more sense. --ChessyPig
- I'll reword this. I think they should have to restart the countdown if they're injured, though. --R
- I'm rewording this as 'miscellaneous action', putting it under the same restrictions as doing first aid or repairing armour. --R
- Alchemy to come next I am bored.
- I don't like "Uncanny dodge" being a subterfuge-only skill. I think that we ought to have a total of three DAC skills, all of which should be available to anyone with sufficient Warrior, Subterfuge or Streetwise, and one of which ought probably be available to anyone. No-one ought to get better DAC than warriors, though. What the restrictions on these should be I'm not sure - some might be useable in armour, some might not; also, it might work well to make "extra DAC" and "extra hits" skills mutually exclusive, although I'm not sure.
- I was trying to make the classes different, and subterfuge seems to be the best place to put DAC as it has the most use for it. I would really rather not allow that much DAC to characters capable of wearing masses of armour; then again, Wilderness in particular and probably Subterfuge needs making much tougher than currently. I see absolutely no reason that warriors should have any more DAC than currently - they are already the most combat powerful of the three classes under consideration. --R
- The goal is to balance characters, not classes. I fully agree that warriors have the potential to be more powerful than either of the other two at present, but giving them an additional option to buy DAC will only make the problem worse if there is a warrior build involving this DAC that will make it possible to build a warrior more powerful than a straight DACless tank - if it isn't, it will actually make things more balanced if some people take the DAC instead of tanking. Probably the way to skewer that option is to a) make the extra DAC not work with armour, and b) possibly not make it buyable if you take too many extra hits, and vice versa. But warriors are the only class which give duelling, blindfighting and melee, and I think it's very desirable that all of those (and perhaps berserker, depending on what's become of it, and brawling and subdual) and DAC end up in one tree. --Jacob
- I would rather shift the 'swashbuckler' concept into Street or Ranger than further expand Warrior. Combat Awareness never really made sense to me, as the rest of the fighter skills (save the almost entirely useless skill Duelling) say TANK. I see the kind of character you want to build, and I agree it's a cool character, but I don't want to put it in the same class as Berserker, Double-Handed, Armour et cetera. I shall think further on this. --R
- I don't like physical forgeries being able to resist magical analysis. Possibly forgery II should include the proviso "if you have access to supernatural materials and processes (which must be aquired in play), you can make them resistant to magical detection", or similar, but magic ought to trump skill, like cheating at cards.
- I reckon a character with no skills at all could make an item that was resistant to all magical enquiry merely by making it very, very carefully. --R
- I think it would often fall down at the first "talk to inanimate", wouldn't it, for anything involving stuff like watermarks and the like - "How were you made?" will give very different answers for a genuine watermark and a forged one, and probably the same more most other genuine and forged processes. And I'd imagine there are also more specialised spells that are even more effective at detecting forgeries. --Jacob
- I could fool 'talk to inanimate', and I've seen it done. --R
- Suppose, for example, I include a wax seal of my fingerprint in my security. How can you forge that in such a way that a spell won't reveal that it was made with something other than a real finger? --Jacob
- That one's fairly trivial, given Forgery Almost-Superhuman-Mastery: you use a cunningly crafted finger, possibly just added bits on your own finger if you want it to be a warm living finger, to do it. --ChessyPig
- I think that would still be distinguishable to a "detect inanimate", not to mention more specialised spells if such exist, which I would hope they do. Come to that, what about simple magical authentication? --Jacob
- The restriction on Pickpocketing an item you can't hide - that the ref will give it to you in plain sight of them - needs rethinking, I think - what if I pick someone's pocket and then leave straight away? Does the ref have to force me to come back to be given it?
- Possibly you can't pickpocket an item you can't hide? That would be more realistic but less fun. --R
- I think the best solution is to make the switch instantaneous. This also avoids the awkward situation where character A steals something from character B, B checks that it's still there or does something with it or similar, and it is, and a ref then comes up and takes it away. --Jacob
- I think that you need to make it clearer that a ref needs to be watching you touch something, to avoid "yes I did/no you didn't" arguments between players. In which case there is a ref there to take the item straight away. --ChessyPig
- Actually, it might make sense to cut out the middleman entirely, and make it simply a matter of one player telling another "picking that pocket". Keeping your identity secret OOC is a nice idea, but I don't think it's workable, alas.--Jacob
- I do not like that idea at all; I think it would lead to players arguing with each other, and potential pickpockets getting killed because the pickpocketee didn't know how to react to this extra, rare call. Everything is more civilised if a ref does it, even if this does require more ref-time investment (people argue with the refs anyway). --ChessyPig
- I don't like the fact that you can't decide to stop hiding while in the middle of doing so. Also, the idea of a norman invisibility rule is bizarre but appealing.
- Ah. Okay, I should reword the hiding thing. --R
- I don't like the wording of street fighter VI because it leaves open the quarrel about what "expecting" is. If we really want something like that, I'd suggest "A target who thinks there is no-one behind them, or is restrained, helpless etc", although I'm dubious about even that.
- It's actually cleaned up from current Streetfighter V. I'll hit it some more. --R
- I agree, it's certainly an improvement; it's just that the original is such a big mess that it needs to be hit even more. --Jacob
- The "Wilderness lore" skills possibly need some thought. I'm not sure that having them give players the ability to ask for information on linears is a good idea, because it makes writing/reffing linears slightly harder, especially for non interactive refs. If we want something like that, I'd make it ref-initiated rather than player initiated: "you may receive extra briefings on monsters before or during linears". It also strikes me as a skill with useful downtime implications: there could be weekly briefings on what's going on in the Wilderness around the city sent out to all the players with wilderness lore n. There could also be a similar "ear to the ground" skill for Subterfuge, for briefings about what's happening in the city underground. --Jacob
- I'd rather not have the latter, because that can easily be acquired IC. Your comments are noted. --R
- As a compromise between melding the two trees and not doing so, can I suggest adding a skill costing e.g. 20 points that gives you a level each of street and wilderness? I don't think this would allow overpowered characters, and would make a scout character a bit more viable. --Jacob
- I don't particularly like how the Disguise III rule interacts with elemental elves- they are half magic; they ping massively to RECOGNISE Magic, and I'm really not sure how you could justify being able to mask that (of course, DETECT Magic is no problem). I'm also not entirely sure how someone disguising themselves as an elemental elf could be worked, but it seems more plausible. --Pufferfish
- It's not unreasonable that there exist enchanted body-suits which respond to RECOGNIZE MAGIC in the same way as an elemental elf. Possibly acquiring such an item should be a matter for roleplay, rather than being abstracted over; possibly not. --NT
- Aaargh, yes, I hadn't spotted that. As with forgery, (and track, too, I'd say) physical skills should not be able to trump supernatural abilities without using supernatural resources, and obtaining those probably shouldn't be automatic. Hmm. One possible fudge would be to add a powerbase to "detect/recognise" calls. This also has the advantage of making, say, a being immune to magic immune to magical detects; it has the drawback of adding another word to the call, but for detects I don't know that that's a terribly serious problem. --Jacob
- Having access to supernatural resources is automatic for a mage (or anyone who wants to become one). Why should it not be automatic for a fifth level rogue? --Requiem
- Um, unless this has changed since previous dicussion, having access to supernatural resources is *not* automatic for a mage or anyone who wants to become one - you have to sign up with a college or find a mentor (it is just reasonably easy to do so). If the rogue has any kind of vaguely plausible explanation of their sources, that's fine, but they need some explanation, just like mages do (and there are pre-written explanations for mages, and perhaps there should be pre-written explanations for rogues). --ChessyPig
- I can understand that allowing one to pretend to be an elemental elf, if you can justify how you got it. But *disguising* the fact that you are really, really magical? *How*? --Pufferfish
- Clothes with a spirit? Clothes with tiny tiny traces of iron woven in to disrupt your magical aura? (don't try casting while wearing them) --NT
- If it were easy, it wouldn't be a level 5 skill. I take the point about 'automatic' - by automatic, I meant that the default answer to 'I'd like these' is 'okay, but I'd like you to name your contact and describe how you get them' not 'no, they're magic'. --Requiem
- If you're letting it involve that, I'd suggest adding a proviso "if you know Elemental Theory you may also deceive magic XYZ", rather than allowing anyone with the skill to do so. --Jacob
- I have reworded Disguise. Thoughts? --R
- I'm pretty sure that Alias does all the fun things I've seen done with Diguise, whilst not allowing someone to run around the city being nigh-on uncatchable for 25xp. Instead this requires a minimum investment of 93xp. I'm not entirely convinced that it's necessary to have aliases being uptime-detectable - instead require someone to follow the person they are suspicious of for a week or something. 'One-off' disguises *can* be fun, but in the past they have generally been an abuse of the system in order to be undetectable to characters attempting to unravel their plottings. --Koryne
- I worry that "alias" would do much of the stuff we want to make harder nearly as well as disguise, and not some of the fun stuff we don't; also "setting up an alias" feels much more like downtime than a skill. I think the way to modify the disguise skill is to make detection easier, not to limit the number of disguises. Possibly "if you spend n time staring intently at someone from really close up (1m or less) then you can tell if they're in disguise or not; with n increasing for higher levels of disguise, and any disguise being broken if you're actually willing to force someone to sit down while you try and pull their ears off? --Jacob
- My issue with Disguise currently is that it makes you completely unaccountable. You can use a disguise for one dodgy deed and then never use it again, as Koryne has said. I wouldn't mind too much about uptime detection either way, but I think it's important for there to be some following-the-trail mechanism, because investigation is Fun, and you can't do that under the current system. --Pufferfish
- Absolutely agreed. Further, it would probably be nice of the refs if there was some way when, when player A comes to them and complains "you let player B find out about me when they wouldn't have because I took precautions PQR/you didn't let me find out about player B when I would have because I'd have noticed XYZ" there was something in the rules that they could point out to say "no, you weren't able to find him because of this thing here in black and white". On the other hand, such a system would be hard to write, and possibly less fun than a more freeform one, and more prone to absurdity and frustration, which are strong arguments against it. --Jacob
- Streetfighter VI doesn't quite work yet - it is very difficult to tell whether someone is under FREEZE or HALT. Also the fact that it requires them to be restrained means that this may well be underpowered for something requiring Subterfuge VI. --Koryne
- Currently Rec Scent interacts really badly with invisibility rules - can it be re-written to fix this? --Koryne
- Also, being pulled down from Wide to Mass removes what I thought was the primary purpose of Rec Scent: "*sniff sniff* I smell goblins. Ambush!" I assume that the interaction to which you refer is that being DETECTed tends to break invisibility? --NT
- Maybe DETECT Race doesn't break invisibility? --R
- Forgery II may be slightly overpowered. My hair raises at the thought of the sheer havoc in the city that could be raised by a single imaginative player... strike that - leave it in, I want to play it! Just think, "I forge a letter from the head of the Militia asking the Mayor's secretary to allow me in to see him, show him a 'suspected forged note' from himself and ask to compare it with his handwriting. If possible leave with a sample of his handwriting. Now I go home and start writing 'love letters', or a letter of resignation. Or "Official Orders" from the Mayor to various officials for me to investigate possible forgeries, and they are to cooperate in providing handwriting samples..." And I consider myself an amateur at that sort of game compared to some of our players. --Koryne
- Level 6 skill in "quite powerful" shocker. More seriously, that seems nonbroken to me. --R
- Remove Combat Awareness. This is a proposal only, and means that many current Warrior concepts fit better in Wilderness or Subterfuge.
- I dislike this - from a feel POV, I think it's desirable to have swashbuckling types as warriors rather than rangers, or at the very least to make this an option. I think we ought to be adding more DAC (or "DAC if not a tank") skills to warrior, not removing Combat Awareness, to enable those archetypes.--Jacob
- No. I'm sorry but I disagree with you on several levels here. The first is that Rangers and Subterfuge characters are not 'warriors'. They are. Period. They may fight in different ways, but Warriors CANNOT get all the combat stuff. We can rename "Warrior" to "Tank" if this makes you feel better. The non-combat classes reflect different styles of fighting - Ian can probably state this better than me, but it is *important* that they all get different strengths and weaknesses. Wilderness is massively underpowered, and to make it worthwhile requires not just putting stuff into it, but making sure that it doesn't duplicate what already exists. Also Massive Armour + Hits + DAC = Win. If someone wants to do it, fine, but it should be difficult - and the *best* way to implement this is to put them in different classes. --Koryne
- I think you're making the mistake of trying to balance trees, rather than characters and archetypes. It doesn't matter a damn if one tree has less stuff in it than another; what's important is that for as many character archetypes as possible there's an intuitive way to build them that doesn't involve spending irritatingly many points on things and options that you don't want. I fully agree that armour and DAC, and probably also hits and DAC, ought not to be compatible, but the best way to do that is to bring in more "DAC when not in armour" skills, and make them and the hits skills preclude taking one another. The reason this is a better approach is that it means that DAC is in the same tree as the best melee skills, which it definately ought to be.
- While this is all very laudable on paper, and moving the swashbuckling DAC-monster to a Ranger class is, in my view, a good idea, I feel you're also removing what little flexibility there was from Warrior. It's already a skill tree which has only 53xp per level and you're taking *more* away from it? You are hosing all the lightly-armoured really-good-in-attack-but-somewhat-poor-in-defence fighter archetypes, which tend to be multiclassed mages and priests and thus are going to be hard in many cases (and with Warlocks *impossible*) to fit into Wilderness or Subterfuge. I would like to have come up with some ideas of things to add to the Warrior to at least give a little more flexibility, but I am crap at ideas. --Pufferfish
- I think the Warlocks would either need to be leant upon IC to accept Rangers, or be redefined to accept members of any combat class. The IC route is niftier, but is going to suck for any characters who were warlocks before the change and aren't afterwards. I can see it being done in a good and IC manner, though ("Um, yes, we're tightening up our admissions procedure, and it looks as though you don't meet the requirements for a warlock. We will of course maintain your sword for only a modest fee, and hunt you down and kill you if you teach our secrets to anyone." Or something like that, but with more than a minute of thought behind it.). --NT
- Warrior really does need more choices (though everyone should take first aid II, which helps a bit, as does the nice fat "you can throw for SINGLEs with your off hand" skill). Unfortunately, it already seems to be as good as people will accept at what it does (Take damage. Dish it out.) Possible things to add: some kind of "Armour Mastery" skill; each purchase adds 1 to the rating of heavy armour on a single location, chosen at time of purchase. The extra point counts against your armour limit. Some kind of through-proofing would be nice: you may take one point of hitpoint damage to a chosen location (one location per purchase) without counting as having taken hitpoint damage, for purposes of potions and poisons. I'd also like to see some kind of resistance to ingestive venoms, and possibly some combat manoeuvres. If we're going to make warriors into tanks, let's give them more ways to tank. --NT
- People like Combat Awareness. Okay, let's keep Combat Awareness. I made the suggestion in case people leapt on it and bounced. --R
- Having two separate skills "targeteer" and "missile competency" feels awkward - why not just allow purchase of targeteer 1-n, rewriting those levels slightly if need be. That said, I think warriors ought to be as good as anyone at missile weapons, so I don't like even that restriction.'' --Jacob
- See above for why warriors don't get all the combat stuff. They are *a* combat class, not *the* combat class. Non-Warriors don't get DOUBLE in normal combat, why should guys who hit things with swords/axes/spears also do massive damage with a bow? --Koryne
- Quite. If you want to learn to use a bow, get out in the woods, buy a level of Wilderness (which I would like to see renamed Ranger) and do it... --Pufferfish
- Targeteer doesn't let you throw. Warriors should be able to throw without multi-classing into Subterfuge. And what they said up there.--NT
How set are we on keeping the concept of trees? It occurs to me that a way to solve all sorts of the demarkation issues we're arguing about, to reduce the extent that different character's skill lists resemble one another, and to give players more choice, would be pool the warrior, wilderness and subterfuge trees into one, and/or to make them general skills with prerequisites of other skills and/or ammounts of XP and/or not taking too much priest/wizard/alchemist. --Jacob
- Could this be further developed? I'm not saying I throw my weight behind this but it is an interesting idea. Skills which preclude others obviously required. I think it might make chargen harder for newbies. --R
Jacob/OperationDeforestation