Requiem/GamistThought

Right. This is a purely gamist thought. It comes from D&D and MMORPGs.

Why is the class with the most defensive power also the class with the most offensive power?

In most games with both a fighter and a rogue class, the rogue is capable of dealing more damage than the fighter, but of taking less. While, yes, the rogue's doing something and sneaky in order to deal that damage out, they're still doing more right from the start. Usually a fighter can specialise for damage and exceed a rogue who hasn't specialised, and a rogue can take their defensive skills and be nearly as good as a fighter at taking what's dealt out, but the rogue deals out more than the fighter and takes less (even if their standard weapon damage is lower, for they tend to have Skills Of Doing Damage).

So how about we extend, say, the Backstab ability to low levels? You could make similar to Targeteer, but instead of using a bow / crossbow it could be 'striking the rear of the torso from behind the target with a shortsword (cudgel) / knife (sap)'. Then if they wanted to knock their opponent out they could buy the Subdual skill like a fighter and do Subdual damage. This could be a levelled skill requiring Streetfighter.

• BACKSTAB (6, requires Subterfuge of equal level): When the rogue strikes the back of the foe's torso location while standing behind them with the weapon prescribed below (either in on-hand or in off-hand), and would normally be doing at least HALF with the weapon, they may instead call the indicated damage. The allowability of the call is arbitrated by the rogue, not by their target.
  • 1: Natural SINGLE THROUGH with <18"
  • 2: Natural SINGLE THROUGH with <36"
  • 3: Natural DOUBLE THROUGH with <18"
  • 4: Natural DOUBLE THROUGH with <36"
  • 5: Natural TRIPLE THROUGH with <18"
  • 6: Natural TRIPLE THROUGH with <36"
  • 7: Natural QUAD THROUGH with <18"
  • 8: Natural QUAD THROUGH with <36"

Or maybe [DOUBLE / TRIPLE / QUAD / QUIN] THROUGH - though I rather think the fact that one can deliver two of these in quick succession is enough.

Proposal 2.

• Remove the Knockout ability altogether.

• CHEAP SHOT (10, requires Subterfuge of twice level): When the rogue strikes the back of the foe's torso location while standing behind them, and would normally be doing at least SINGLE with the weapon, they may instead call the indicated damage. The allowability of the call is arbitrated by the rogue, not by their target. This skill is not compatible with the 'Double-Handed' or 'Berserker' skills from the Melee tree. There is no special effect upon using this skill on a restrained or unresisting target.
• 1: SINGLE THROUGH
• 2: DOUBLE THROUGH
• 3: TRIPLE THROUGH
• 4: QUAD THROUGH

This is more than a warrior's maximum ambidextrous damage output and it is explicitly able to be more than the normal damage possible with the weapons usable with Streetfighter. The ideas is to make the streetfighter capable of dealing out more damage than a warrior can in the same time period, without requiring the aid of any other character or a large amount of money. It is supposed to be the best combat damage skill, though a specialised warrior can exceed it by berserking.

Proposal 3 (--Jacob, not Requiem)

Backstab (10 points per level, requires subterfuge N (or 40N points of subterfuge abilities)): When backstabbing (as above), while not wearing more than AC 2 on any location, with weapons not more than 18' long:

1) single with 1 one weapon.

2) single ambidex.

3) double in one hand

4) double ambidex

5) triple in one hand

6) triple ambidex

7) quad in one hand

8) quad ambidex.

Find weak spot (20 points requires backstab 5): Can call through damage when backstabbing with weapons up to 18' long while not in AC greater than 2.

This is designed to be significantly weaker than the above two versions, and to prohibit heavy armour or weapons longer than 18' - you shouldn't get both the advantage of backstabbing and the advantage of using a shortsword or something else with non-trivial reach, and tanks shouldn't be able to do it.

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Comments?

I think the general idea is a very good one; I'm not fully convinced by the execution. I think the skill is probably too cheap, and that it needs restrictions on what other stuff it can be combined with - it should be something that only specialists can get, at least at higher levels, I think. I'd suggest adding a "while not wearing armour greater than X" restriction to it, probably severely limiting its ability to stack with other damage upgrades. But I think it rewards sneaking about and jumping out, and watching out for other people doing the same thing, which people will probably enjoy, I think. "The allowability of the call is arbitrated by the rogue, not by their target" sets off alarm bells in my head, although I'm not totally sure why; I can certainly see what it's doing there. --Jacob

Similarly, I like the suggestion in principle. However, I think as currently stands this is really very powerful indeed. Repeatable double through with ambidaggers will drop pretty much anyone incredibly quickly, given that a rushing dagger-fighter will get certainly two and very likely three or four hits in before the defender can get away. The standard fighter at 150xp is 8/4; the standard rogue using this skill at that level can drop him while likely taking a single in return. I suppose it balances better on linears where getting behind someone is harder, but in interactives it'd be close to instagib at scarily low level. I also suspect that it is in fact at least as powerful, if not more so, with short weapons as it is with long; and clearly breaks the limiting of daggers/coshes to natural single. I'm not sure how to fix this power level issue, but I think it needs to be done before this is brought in. Rapidly taking just about anyone down is fine at Lv5 but not at Lv3; the current backstab is a one-shot triple through. Also, it probably obviates knockout to a significant extent. Worth working on, however, definitely - perhaps start the skill at Lv2 or Lv3 not Lv1; for single through -> double through at Lv4/5 -> triple through at Lv6 or 7... equally, that might be downpowered too far. Not sure - will need work. -TheKremlin

Simple way of unbreaking it - start with Half Through. Half Through is still a useful poison-delivery mechanism, but as long as we keep an eye on blade-enhancers not being instakills at too low a level, it moves the instakill up a couple of levels. --ChessyPig

It's supposed to do more damage than a warrior. Rapidly taking just about anyone down at Lv3 is quite possible with a warrior (Double-Handed, Berserk -> TRIPLE). Still, see proposal 2 which moves that to Lv4. It's mostly useful against an unprepared target or in a very confused melee; experience tells me that a current Lv5 rogue comes nowhere near a similar level warrior in terms of damage potential, even given ambidexing and reasonable skill. --R

This should be non-trivially less powerful than warrior - combat skills in the rogue tree should be less good than ones for warriors, so that warriors remain better at fighting than rogues to make up for not being able to rogue. I think both 1 and 2 are a bit too good.--Jacob

Thing is, Berserk comes with a very significant roleplay penalty. Warrior can get two-handed double at 150xp, sure, but it isn't through and isn't as instagibby. Plus, you can't hit nearly as fast safely with a staff as you can with two daggers. Still, new proposals are rather interesting. -TheKremlin

Warriors remain better at *fighting*, especially under proposal 2, and are better against targets who are facing them (that would be, oh, 75 to 90 per cent of encounters). But rogues should get something that they are actually competent at in a fight at high level - there is little point in a level 8 rogue ever entering a fight, as they are doing something like 1/4 as much damage as the fighter and can take approximately 1/3 as much damage in turn. I want it to be possible to linear as a subterfuge (or wilderness) character of any level and feel an essential part of the team, without the refs going to disproportionate effort to force the party to have a rogue in it. --Requiem

Sure; I just think ambidex double-through daggers at Lv3 is a bit over the top even given that. Still, the idea on the whole I'm fine with. Don't forget all the other useful skills in Subterfuge; Warrior should remain the primary combat class. Nevertheless, yes, fast damage like this has the benefit of making rogues feel useful, and, more importantly, being DAMNED GOOD FUN, which we've shown backstab-like stuff to be.

I've put up a massively weaker proposal than Requiem's. I suspect that even at the levels I've put it at, it will still be a popular purchase - if anything, it's still too good. We ought to be looking to weaken the ability until it becomes popular, but not immensely so - it's far better to have a few abilities less good than all the rest than a few abilities better than all the rest. --Jacob

(It's strictly stronger PvM?, as few monsters wear more than a point or two of armour. The 20 point skill is something nobody would ever take. I see what you're getting at, but the execution might need cleaning up. --Requiem)

It's 10 points a level for 8 levels, rather than 6x8 or 4x10, to get roughly the same effect, with an extra 20-point ability for through (which I suspect would prove quite popular, actually - remember all the floating armour out there). --Jacob

The per-level cost is nearly irrelevant as long as it's between 6 and 12 inclusive. Must think more on. --Requiem

Totally ignoring specifics such as numbers, having a backstab tree (of whatever nature) struck me as a good idea some time ago. Ideas I had noted down included that you could have a basic tree that gives you extra backstab damage at a sensible progression. Maybe the ability to mix Through with the damage call padding out some levels could come in a bit later. Also possibly have a Through with all short weapons at about level 6 since this doesn't strike me as something that's actually amazingly broken if we're toning down venoms. Maybe a top level ability would allow multiple strikes from behind at the backstab damage call or to cascade down them such as Quad, Triple, Double, Single, (run away).

I think the design philosophy of the rogue classes should be that your starting rogue should be able to deal out more damage than a warrior but the warrior gets do do more damage over time and soak up more. Basically the rogue classes without double buying would be the only non supernatural class which could deal out more than single at 90xp, I think people would think 'ooh, cool' if this were the case and maybe buy subterfuge more.

It's also worth noting that it's probably better for people to agree on what sort of thing they want in the trees rather than the exact specifics and costs are subject to change when the motion goes through the refs anyway. It's more important to know what we want the trees to do rather than what individual skills might be. --David

I like the damage cascade idea, and the backstab tree (see my own Subterfuge ideas). I prefer Through with all shorts at Lv5 to parallel Melee V. People don't reach Subterfuge VI all that often. -TheKremlin

People would probably reach Subterfuge VI more often if there was something worthwhile up there. Currently there is very little above level V compared to what you get at level V / the advantages of taking a secondary class.

There'd probably be knockout at Subterfuge VI, which is well worth it. Getting to Subterfuge VI will probably mean reaching 300xp or so, without double-buying, which few people do. 240xp, however, is reachable after a term or two.