Requiem's idea of having a base potion and modifying its level to add more useful effects is a good one, but the two axes of Potency and Concentration are too limiting for some potions and excessive for others, leading to confusion about what you need to increase to have the desired effect. They also necessarily increase linearly, requiring the invention of speedbumps. Speedbumps increase confusion and require more effort to write, and introduce the possibility of a speedbump which is accidentally better than the higher-level ability it was a speedbump for.
Therefore I propose a system of bolt-ons to replace the notion of Potency and Concentration. These bolt-ons increase the level of the potion - these levels count as "Advances" for purposes of interaction with Alchemical Skill, which I'm taking this opportunity to re-write to better suit my prejudices.
ALCHEMICAL SKILL (N), 10 XP, requires Alchemical Theory: You may advance a potion by up to N levels. In order to make this advanced potion you will also need an available potion slot of an appropriate level.
Unless otherwise stated, all potions have a distinctive colour, flavour or odour which makes it impossible to take them without knowing you are drinking something strange, and cannot be applied to a weapon. Blade venoms can be applied to a weapon, and lose their effectiveness five minutes after being so applied. Anyone without the skill to use blade venoms (whatever that ends up being) attempting to pick up or use such a weapon will discharge the venom effect and take it themselves. Ingestive venoms may be applied by anyone with the requisite skill to any food or drink to poison it - the victim will have no warning that there is poison in their food until they have consumed half of it, at which point they take the full effect. Anyone attempting to apply an ingestive venom without the skill will fail, and suffer the full effects of the venom. You must notify a ref before attempting to poison food or drinks.
Proposed potions under this system (a few, and tentative. I encourage you to comment on these potions with ways in which they could be improved):
Healing Potion. Base level 1. CURE 2 to any one location, chosen at time of use. This potion comes in human and elven versions; human healing potions are effective only on humans and dwarves, while elven versions are effective only on elves and kender.
- +2 levels: The effect may be distributed across multiple locations.
- +N levels: Cure an additional 2N damage.
- +4 levels: CURE SUFFICIENT. This effect may not be distributed.
- +4 levels: Potion has its full effect on every location simultaneously. This is compatible with CURE SUFFICIENT.
- +2 levels: This potion works equally well on all races.
Blade Venom. Base level 2. This potion is sticky, and may be used as a blade venom. The next blow with this weapon adds VENOM 5 WEAKNESS to its damage call; the effect is not used up if the target calls BLOCKED. The weakness persists for eight days, or until the effect is purged.
- +2 levels: The victim will die in 30 minutes.
- +3 levels: The victim will die in 5 minutes.
- +4 levels: The victim will die in 1 minute.
- +3 levels: The venom inflicts FRAILTY instead of WEAKNESS.
- +N levels: The venom is a VENOM (5 + N).
- +1 level: The weakness is permanent, or until the effect is purged.
- +2N levels: The venom remains effective for an additional N blows. Note that repeated application of venoms to the same target will have no additional effects.
- Out of interest, do we think "die in 60 seconds" is actually workable? By the time the effect of the venom has been explained by a ref, quite a lot of the sixty seconds will be over... --Pufferfish
- I dislike the 'die in N minutes' effect. It means that unless you have an antivenom on your linear, encounters with these become 'lol, kill a character'. Also, Weakness isn't a major deal for many mages, but would really ruin the linear of a warrior who got hit by it. I don't think you want to make antivenom effects *that* essential. Especially since there's currently no guarantee there's one in the bar, never mind in a linear party. --I
Ingestive Venom. Base level 2. This potion is tasteless and may be used as an ingestive venom. The effect of the potion is VENOM 5 WEAKNESS; this is a damage call and susceptible to damage-negation effects. This potion has all the same bolt-ons as Blade Venom, above, except that remaining effective for multiple blows is nonsensical and disallowed.
Sleep. Base level 3. The imbiber falls immediately into a dreamless sleep - call DROP. This is a VENOM 8 effect. The victim can be woken by any effect which breaks HALT, and will awaken after five minutes or if the effect is purged in any case.
- +2 levels: The victim cannot be woken before the duration expires or the effect is purged.
- +2 levels: The potion is INFLICT duration.
- +3 levels: The potion is of permanent duration.
- +3 levels: The potion may be used as a blade venom, appending VENOM 8 DROP to the next call with that weapon.
- +3 levels: The potion may be used as an ingestive venom.
- How does the victim know that any effect which breaks halt will wake them? If they are hit several more times after being blade-venomed with this, they will likely be dead before the ref gets there. IMO, we need a 'SLEEP' type call for this, knockout, and similar - to cover 'you are on the ground, and unaware of your surroundings, but may be woken up by anything happening to you'. --I (Also, ingestive should be cheaper than blade, since it's harder to use).
Truth. Base level 5. The imbiber falls immediately into a trance. They are unaware of their surroundings, but may speak normally. They may not lie. This is a VENOM 10 effect - call DROP and explain the situation. After five minutes, or if they suffer any effect which would break HALT, they will wake from this trance. They will suffer FRAILTY until the venom is purged.
- +1 level: The victim is aware of their surroundings while under the trance.
- +2 levels: The victim is aware of their surroundings, and must answer any question asked truthfully, to the best of their knowledge.
- +2 levels: The trance cannot be broken before the effect expires or is purged.
- +3 levels: The potion may be used as an ingestive venom.
Armour-hardening oil. Base level 1. Adds a single point of armour to a single armoured location. This armour point does not count against the character's armour limit, is lost before the natural armour on that location, may not be repaired by any means, and will be lost after five minutes in any event.
- +N levels: A single dose of this potion will affect 2N armoured locations.
- +N levels: Each affected location gains N armour points in addition to the single point granted by the base potion.
- +1 level: The potion is of INFLICT duration.
- +2 levels: Armour granted by this potion may be repaired normally.
Regeneration. Base level 3. This potion is a VENOM 5 with a five-minute duration. If, while under the effect of this potion, the victim becomes unconscious for any reason (real damage, subdual damage, sleep effects...), the potion begins its work. It will begin to repair the victim's body, keeping them alive unless they are hacked to pieces (requiring thirty continuouse seconds of obvious roleplay). Sixty seconds after the last time they took damage, they will be able to get up with locations at the higher of 1 hit or their current health level. All subdual damage will be healed. Limbs which were severed before losing consciousness remain severed; those severed after losing consciousness will be restored. They will be left sluggish by the residue of the potion - a VENOM 5 effect, with INFLICT duration, forces them to move at zombie speed and gives their features a green-grey cast. They may fight normally. The effect may only be triggered once before exhausting the potion, and it is triggered at the moment the victim becomes unconscious. For example, someone being knocked down 4 minutes and 45 seconds after taking this potion would get up one minute after they last took damage, even if someone continues to hit them for 20 seconds after they fall. The churches of Azrael, Humact, Balance and Vivamort all disapprove of this potion, as it makes it hard to tell zombies from party members.
- +2N levels: The potion may take effect an additional N times.
- +2 levels: The potion is INFLICT duration.
- +4 levels: The potion may take effect an unlimited number of times, but the imbiber moves at zombie speed and has a greenish-grey cast to their features from the moment they take the potion.
- +3 levels: The regeneration is significantly faster, but more violent. Five seconds after the regenerating body last took damage, it will begin to thrash violently. Ten seconds after the regenerating body last took damage, it will regain consciousness on one hit to all useless locations and the current health level on all usable ones.
- +5 levels: The potion will completely heal the user when they regenerate.
- This is one level lower than an all-locations CURE SUFFICIENT, but it does come with sufficient disadvantages to merit that, IMO. --NT
- +N levels: The level of the VENOM effects for both the latent potion and the after-effects becomes 5 + N.
- Would this be triggered by Sleep and other non-damaging drop effects? Or only when you reached 0 due to injury? -- Felicity
- Interesting question. I'd say it should - there's nothing quite like your knockout victim getting up as a zombie to spice up a subterfuger's life. --NT
- Hmmm. I have spotted a small flaw. Currently combining the standard base regen potion along with a no weakness antivenom, you effectively have a potion of cure sufficient on all locations for a level 3 + level 3 effect. -- Flying_O
- Solution: Regen to 1 hit on all locs rather than full? -- Flying_O
- Does that look better? --NT
Antivenom. Base level 1. PURGE VENOM 5. The drinker vomits and gains an INFLICT-duration VENOM 5 WEAKNESS effect.
- +N levels: PURGE VENOM (5 + N).
- +1 level: The WEAKNESS lasts only 5 minutes.
- +2 levels: No mechanical side-effects, though the vomiting remains.
- +3 levels: No side-effects.
Speed. Base level 3. The drinker gains the full benefit of four purchases of a DAC skill (whatever they end up being, please God let them change) for the next five minutes, as a VENOM 5 effect should anyone wish to purge it. They are somewhat bouncy, hyperactive and easily distracted for the duration, which has no mechanical effect.
- +N levels: Gain an additional 2N purchases of a DAC skill.
- +2 levels: The potion is INFLICT duration.
- +4 levels: The potion lasts a week.
Strength. Base level 4. The drinker gains a degree of natural damage as long as their natural damage call was no higher than SINGLE before this potion took effect. This lasts for five minutes, and is a VENOM 5 effect for purposes of purging.
- +2N levels: Increase the maximum damage call before this potion's effect by N degrees.
- +5 levels: The drinker gains two degrees of natural damage if this potion takes effect at all.
- +2 levels: The potion is INFLICT duration.
- +4 levels: The potion lasts a week.
Calm. Base level 1. For five minutes, recipient is no longer subject to the rules for Berserk. Useful for people who are Berserkers but want to make sure they don't flip out and kill someone at the wrong time.
- +2 levels: The potion is of Inflict duration.
- +4 levels: The potion lasts a week.
- +2 (?) levels: The recipient is still subject to the rules for Berserk, but is in full control of it, being able to snap out of it whenever they want (and, in fact, avoid Berserking entirely if they want to).
Alchemical Fire. Base level 1. This blade venom simply increases the damage capacity of the weapon it's applied to. For purposes of unskilled users, the full effect of this venom is a hit to whichever limb they were using, doing as much damage as the venom adds. The next blow with a weapon treated with this potion gains +2 unnatural degrees of damage.
- +N levels: The venom remains effective for an additional 2N blows.
- +N levels: The venom adds an additional N degrees of damage.
- +4 levels: The venom comes in an applicator which even a warrior can use without hurting themselves.
Alchemical Fire, take two. Base level 3. This is a blade venom, unskilled users taking a hit as per take one. A weapon treated with this preparation gains +1 unnatural degree of damage for five minutes.
- +5 levels: Gain +2 unnatural degrees of damage.
- +2 levels: Weapons treated with this potion are safe for an untrained user to wield.
- +4 levels: You may use this potion, and a weapon treated with it, without the skill to use blade venoms.
- This is pretty similar to Strength, but (a) it doesn't care what your current damage call is, (b) it requires skill or a level bump to use the buffed weapon, and (c) I think it'd interact prettily with Conditioned Synthesis. It's roughly comparable with Blackblade. --NT
This is far better than my idea. It needs a reworking of conditioned synthesis, but I like it much more. --Requiem
Winterlove and I are both in favour. As are Ariane and Francis ;-) --Pufferfish
- Confirmed. It simplifies the way potions augment while keeping black-box-ism to a minimum. Black-box-ism is what the current alchemy system suffers from, in my opinion. --Winterlove.
Only one issue - I'm not certain about having a skill to apply ingestive venoms. --Koryne
- I can see points each way. It means no idiot can do it... but then it means no idiot can do it, basically. Would it lead to a rash of ingestive poison use if anyone could do it? What about effects delivered by blade that aren't poisons? --Pufferfish
- It was my intention that non-poison effects delivered by blade (of which sleep is the only example on that list) would act just like venoms, requiring a skill to use them and affecting the user if they didn't have the skill. --NT
- It is worth noting that currently, you may use non-venom blade potions without a skill. I don't know if this is a bug or feature though. --Pufferfish
- I think it's a bug, given how scary blade potions are. --NT
- Bug IMO, reasons as NT, too big to fix without GM motion. --R
We'd probably have an initially small number of potions (little more than above) and a research mechanism, expanding the available number with research NPCs as well as PC action, if I had my way. Maelstrom's research mechanism (tech tree) wouldn't work - our magic research mechanism wouldn't be complicated enough for alchemists. Hmm, I shall think further and write something at lunchtime. --R
- What would be wrong with simply downtiming "I would like to research a potion that does foo" or "I would like to research X bolt-on for existing potion Y", and having a system of "you need to use n potion slots for m weeks" for working out how long it takes? Am I missing something here? --Pufferfish
- Not really, but I would like a system where the relation between X, Y, m and n is known and understandable. --Requiem
The +2 levels for inflict duration on the potions of speed and strength don't really seem sufficient to me, given how much more effective they make the potion. In particular, a level 6 potion that turns an ambidex single doer into an ambidex double doer for an entire day seems really rather good. -- Flying_O
I would like to see somekind of damage increasing salve as Venom seems to have changed to a long term call. Something like Alchemical Fire which can be poured on blades to increase damage? --Taxellor
- Ooh, I like that - a better excuse than blade acids, which got vetoed on grounds of Chemistry. --NT
Combat drugs are fun, also I like the calming potion - don't know about the level, but haven't thought deeply on it. Can we think of a good function for woad / war paint type stuff? --R
- An obvious one is some kind of armour effect. Another possibility is that if the stuff is used to paint certain specific symbols, you have the pictorial form of a Blessing. --Winterlove
- I've seen in another game war paint made from poisonous mushrooms, the active ingredient being absorbed through the skin and gradually inducing frothing berserkness. But yes, armour is a bit less silly. I just like the image of Warhammer-esque woad-clad dwarfish frothing berserkers, hard as nails and twice as sharp. --R
- Well now, a potion that induces bezerkness is a rather cool notion anyway. --Winterlove
- War paint feels to me much more like part of a rite than an alchemical effect. Alchemical contact "venoms" that drove people berserk and that could thus be used as war paint, possibly, but that feels like a slight stretch. --Jacob
The alchemical fire does seem to be quite strong for its levels. Is a level 4 potions that allows you 3 hits at +4 to your natural damage overpowered? I think it might depend on what counts as an unskilled user using it, and how much it costs. --Androidkiller
- Where does the plus 4 damage come from? Currently Alchemical Fire isn't up as far as I can tell. --Taxellor
- It's the last potion above - the name just wasn't bolded. It says base 1, +2 degrees of damage for one hit, +N for an extra degree of damage (so I've added +2) and +N for an extra 2N hits before it runs out (so I've added +1) giving a total of a level 4 potion for +4 degrees of damage for 3 hits --Androidkiller
- The +N for +2N hits is arguably too good. Having the potion start at +1 degree rather than +2 wouldn't hurt either.-- Flying_O
- I'd like to avoid making potions strictly worse than Bladesharp wherever possible. I'd also like to make Alchemical Fire competitive with Strength for increasing the amount of damage you do. --NT
- Remember you can make it into an oil. So that'd be three fights worth of the effect for one potion. I'd knock the damage down to starting at +1. I think +2N hits is fine considering +1 damage on a weapon for 5 mins is a third level spell. I'd be tempted to say +2N for N more degrees of damage but that may be too weak. --Taxellor
- A first-level Alchemical Fire oil still loses to Bladesharp, in that it costs resources, requires the user (rather than the buffer) to have a particular skill, and provides an unnatural add. This is an issue I have with current low-level venoms, and I'd like to avoid replicating it in the new system if at all possible. --NT
- Hmmm, I was mostly worried about it becoming sick and broken like the sick and broken bonus light spell currently is. 3 quads is awfully good for a 4th level potion. ie. Very good at killing someone without there being much you can do to defend against it. 5 quads at 5th level gets even scarier. The problem is the multiple (big, scary) effects with a single application.-- Flying_O
- I think you're right about the repeated scary effects. A problem with damage-adding potions is that either they provide a ready source of instakills, which is dull and lame, or they're not worth bothering with compared with true blade venoms. Or they end up similar to a Strength potion. Actually, that gives me an idea... --NT
Suggestion: For all beneficial potions, you can make them at -1 level with the requirement that they have to be delivered intravenously, which can only be done by a character with the correct skill. --Valtiel
- I like this. How about Alchemical Medicine I as the appropriate usage skill? --Winterlove
- ''I strongly suspect this of being too powerful but I'm not sure why yet. Also it may be something of a physrepping nightmare; it's bad enough to get people to actually carry potion physreps. That said, it could be a rather fun idea. --Pufferfish
- It's not too bad, assuming that it's an alchemist only thing again. I'm trying to vaguely compare this with gels - compared to 3 level n potions (in a gel), a level n+1 injection (in a needle) doesn't really sound that overpowered. Certainly something that could be a possible alchemical synthesis skill I'd have thought. Physrepping might be an issue however. -- Flying_O
- Physreps aren't that difficult. Plastic syringe, minus needle, painted silver. Pretty cheap and easy to make. I also have an old metal ear syringe that I'll lend to trustworthy people on a per-interactive basis. --Valtiel
- You can get oral syringes for giving medicine (Calpol! Praise be its name!) to children who are being too awkward (or too small) to be given it with a spoon.--Winterlove
- While I may regret asking this, what is the difference between an oral syringe and a normal syringe? --Pufferfish
- They don't expect one to attach a needle, instead having a short plastic "needle" moulded into them. At least, that's what the ones I've seen had. --NT
- I dislike this - TT is a fantasy setting, not a sci-fi one. Effective intravenous drugs before gunpowder feels very wrong to me. --Jacob
- TT already has effective oral and topical drugs before gunpowder, unlike real life. I don't see why also gaining intravenous ones makes it less believable. You simply cannot say that technology in TT is going to advance anything like it did in our world, as medicine is *already* so far beyond a real medieval society and even in a few cases a real modern one. --Pufferfish
- It's not a matter of realistic scientific progression, it's a matter of feel - potions and poultices feel fine in a fantasy setting (although "oral and topical drugs" don't...); intravenous anything doesn't, at least to me. --Jacob
Cure 2 to all locations simultaneously at only level five sounds a bit good, and you get Cure 4 to all locations simultaneously for only one level higher, or am I misunderstanding something? --Valtiel
- At least going by my rewrite of mass synthesis, rather than a cure 2 to all locations potion, you can make 5 cure 2s to a single location. It's slightly more efficient than the 5 cure 2s, but nowhere near as flexible. With a Cure 4 to all locations upwards, I think you will run into situations where it starts to become highly unlikely that someone will have taken 4 points of damage on all locations, and so a lot of it's potential healing power will be lost. Of course, it could still be very useful if you can find a spare 10 seconds(?) or so to drink one in the middle of a fight. Certainly from an out of battle healing perspective though, an alchemist can give up 2 level 1 and level 2 slots for an effective 36 points of healing. Add in 2 level 3 slots and that bumps you up to a possible total of 72 points healing. Whilst some beefy healing potions may prove to be useful in a battle situation, I'd have thought that most alchemists would have better things to do with their high level slots than simply add further to this massive pool of healing. -- Flying_O
I am not convinced that the ability to make some venoms easier to cure than others justifies adding an extra number to the call for venoms and added complexity to their mechanics. I worry that people will take a "venom 7" as doing 7 hits. I like the idea of venoms being non-levelled, and anti-venoms simply curing venom, with decreasing levels of side effects for better anti-venoms. I think the complexity coupons used on levelled venoms could be better spent elsewhere. --Jacob
- ''People are unlikely to take seven hits from a VENOM 7 because the word for "take seven hits" is SEPT not SEVEN. Whenever the call "SEVEN" appears in system it is an inflict level, and so I don't see anything wrong with it also being used for venom levels. More importantly, the lack of levelling of venoms removes a very obvious way to give someone a long-lasting disabling but not fatal effect. --Pufferfish
- I think you overestimate people's ability to distinguish cardinals from ordinals (have I got that right?) under stress. Consider also possible confusion with durations, especially for venom 5. Alternatively, since people taking venoms need to be talked to by the refs, have most venoms and antivenoms be level 0, and the level be passed on to the player by a ref if it's higher. This also gives a clear boundary between "normal venoms" and "flangy venoms" and likewise for antivenoms, which I think is good for flavour, and for letting players show off. --Jacob
- You make a good point about duration confusion. But that could mostly be avoided by not having VENOM 5 or VENOM 10... --Pufferfish