1) Setting.
TT's setting is really quite generic. It does not present any immediate challenges or areas of investigation for PCs except the ones which are the current set of plothooks - nothing truely ongoing. The PCs already start as members of any organisation they need to join, and automatically progress through it as they gain XP. Occasionally their organisation will bite them (normally in the form of spiritwracking of priests), and the bits where it has done so have been some of the best plot so far, but all too often it doesn't affect them at all. If you had, for instance, a choice of magic schools offering different spell matrixes (beyond the rather flavourless and purely mercenary colleges) or better/worse research facilities, this would make the setting deeper. The Guilds such as the Scouts and Mercenary's guild are good but require more independant motivation - currently they seem just to be used whenever a plot hook is needed and ignored the rest of the time, making them quite unrealistic.
The other problem with the setting is that the PCs are not heroic in power level amongst the setting. The system power levels are just fine, but there are far too many high-powered NPCs dwarfing the power of the PCs and making everyone wonder why we don't just call in the army / why the supposed hoards of at-least-level-1 Humacti and the level-6/7 high priests don't deal with the problems. If even first-level PCs were rare and special (e.g. most priests only have Spiritual Awakening if that, a few might have some level 1 miracles, but basically nobody but PCs and active, real-living-with-motivations plot NPCs has higher than that) then there would be a lot more realism behind our adventures and a lot more motivation for the PCs to do things - a much more real sense of 'if I don't nobody will', a wider market for higher-level healing...
The first setting thing is being improved gradually, and can be. The second one is much harder to improve without basically trashing the setting and starting over. I have a Mad Scheme by which you can do that and retain all the current characters intact, along with introducing a more flavourful set of races, skills and Random Stuff (rather than the current very generic setting), but I'd quite like to inflict it on people rather than share it widely as you people seem to believe in FOIP. If the refs are interested in it they can talk to me, but I suspect they're not :).
2) Economy
Another problem that TT has is the lack of coherant character motivations, leading to lots of caracatures; also a lack of a good vehicle for conflict between players, as violent conflict will always be stamped out in such a small group. The obvious solution to this is to have a proper, working economy, by which I mean 'have money worth stuff that the players want'. Currently, you can spend money on potions, spells, scrolls, and random services from other PCs / the bartender, and money flows into the system constantly to the point where lots of players lose vast quantities of it due to leaving it lying around.
It's possible that the system for making magic flangey swords / paying mages to empower you with rituals will do as a money sink, and players have begun to ask for more trading-type economy, but the trading-type economy comes up against the cardboard-cut-out setting problem again - as they're trading in things which have no particular value to PCs they're interacting with NPCs who either act in a 'LOOK PLOT' kind of way or a completely random and arbitary way, rather than as part of a coherant setting.
Um. I'm sure I had a coherant point when I was actually talking about it, but it's got late. More when I've had chance to talk about it again.
3) XP
XP is a lousy way of doing character advancement. Characters should go to the bar and go on adventures because they have an actual motivation to do so, but currently they're mostly motivated by their player's desire for XP. If we abolished giving out XP for linears, then we'd have more motivation to write linears that characters wanted to go on, not just that they go on because of the Plot Stick and the XP Carrot.
I quite like the Maelstrom-style 'you have some time, use it to learn skills' system. I think lots of other people quite like it to. I think we should have one.
(1) Quite agree. (2) Again, yeah. Maybe there should be more useful items somehow.
(3) The problem with Maelstrom's system (though it works for Maelstrom) is that money and skills are gained independently. You can't train effectively while building things or navigating, thus quickly establishing large distinctions between characters that have concentrated on skill learning and those who have concentrated on applying those skills they have. This seems out of flavour for TT. --Requiem
2)Don't do it for the xp, do it for the money. Due to the way the TT system runs, most of the characters are part-time adventurers. What do they do the rest of the time? Where does their income, less income skills. come from. "I'm going on quest to avoid my debtors" can be more fun than "I want the xp". But yes, more expenses would be good. The CotL? can't fine everything all on their own. Imagine if mayoral agents turned up with a bill for damages :) But yeah, a bit about economy of the region could be good. Also, more plot hooks.
3)Every advancement system has its ups and downs. Some advance 1 level per linear(Skullduggery, UEARPS). Some give out xp, but do so very slowly (LT), while others grade xp by costume, motivation, acting, staying IC, etc (LURPS). Better plot hooks, tailored to PC, and a more stringent economy (income tax?), should overcome the adventuring only for xp. Variable xp by character for perfomance would be nice, but is a hell of a lot of work for the refs.
further views? Garuda
2) Could be fixed in-place, most trivially by allowing more minor magical items and talisman-like objects into the system - with an economy also being possible, but basically requiring a lot of work (I'd suggest one ref basically be responsible for all money-related stuff, since then they can just eyeball it, rather than having to produce huge amounts of documentation).
Oh, I dislike variable XP. It can lead to rather ugly competition for spotlight time which tends to spoil the game somewhat for less extroverted players. IMO, anyway.
Actually, I continue to want to try an XP-free system, full stop. I'm currently attempting to codify one which is suitable for linears (in the way that the fest systems aren't really, since they tend to use 'number of players standing' to measure attrition) - since making linears challenging and fun is the hard bit for a system, and (most) interactives could be run freeform without any real trouble. I'll put it up for discussion if/when I get somewhere.
--Inquisitor
1) Regarding the guilds - This is something that can largely be fixed in play, by the players. A believable infrastructure that the players interact with in uptime is going to be difficult/impossible to implement by ref action alone given there are only 4 refs and limited time. Mean big brother Durham have PC characters fulfilling almost every level of authority in the guilds - there are PC's recruiting, politicing and backstabbing their way to higher positions, forming interguild alliances. Theres no reason this can't happen in Cam if the players are more proactive and actively go after guild positions. The refs need to support this, and make it more widely known that this is an option. Having more higher level characters will help, as long as the characters are proactive. Even for low level characters, as in real life those more able skillswise will lose out to those violently enthusiastic and hungry for responsiblity.
Touching on (2) character motivations, the setting becomes believable when everyone you interact with has complex goals and background, and mostly you are interacting with other players. Instead of being a large mostly-friendly, internally non violent group to whom outside influences occur, there need to be clearer internal divisions and motivations. The background is already in place for this, for example the pantheons and priesty plot, but it got buried last year as no one knew about it.
I guess am saying that yup, refs need to make sure background is available (which I think they will be doing), need to have NPC's coming in and agitating based on the background (eg reminding everyone of the existence of pantheon plot, guild plot).. but in terms of having better guilds, nothing is going to change (even with a complete rewrite) unless the experienced players have characters taking responsibilty in the guilds/churches/colleges and actively agitating for the agenda of their guilds/churches/colleges in the interactives.
It requires metagaming - my character will take these actions because someone needs to for the good of the game - so thats an individual choice for each player, whether they can justify it IC. My experience is all that if you take an angle, run with it, agitate with it then the refs will support you all the way, but it requires putting in a lot of effort eg: keep offering to buy your superior drinks in the bar on Friday and pointing out to them XYZ. Suddenly your guild/church/college will become more proactive..
It's up to players to make this work, basically. Not the system (not that it couldn't be improoved).
(back on topic)
Agree about heroic levels of NPCs and background characters, PCs are the brightest and the best and should outrank the commoner by several orders of magnitude. It then makes sense for them to be taking up guild positions...
Economy - More money sinks would be good. Paying to learn, and having to arrange to learn IC even basic skills, and having certain skills regulated by the relevant guilds, would be a very good start. It means the guilds really have a purpose, and then theres always the plot fun of cracking down on people teaching skill X widely when they haven't payed their guild fees..
My views:
1) I think developing the setting further is self-evidently a good thing, with a few provisos. One is that the TT setting is inherently very silly indeed; when detailing it further we probably ought to try and avoid bringing absurdities that are currently shoved away in the background out of sight into the spotlight too much - questions like "how would a society with this much supernatural power sloshing around turn out even as similar to the real world as it has" and "why do the characters keep drinking in this bar" don't have sensible answers, and it's better not to ask them, unfortunately. I think we need to keep the tacit admission that the setting is basically a carboard cut-out to run adventures in front of, but that said we should definately try and make it as interesting a cutout as possible. But I think in general adding detail because you have a specific good idea is a (very) good thing, but trying to fill in holes just for the sake of it is risky.
2) I don't agree with most of the reasons given for creating a more detailed economy, but I nevertheless think it would be a very good thing, on the grounds that even though I'm not interested in it a lot of players clearly are, and we should aim to please. I do think players should not be under any pressure to get involved, though.
3) I think there are several flaws with the specifics of TTs experience system (coughloyaltybonuscough) but I don't think there's anything wrong with the basic approach - which is not to say that an experience-less game wouldn't be interesting too - vide Oxford University's "Horizon" LARP for an example of a good approach. It's not written in the stars that characters need to get more powerful each time they play. I think it's quite fun, though, if you're running a game it's appropriate to.
Also, I strongly agree that TT has too many high level NPCs, although things are improving. Provided they stay in the background they're an absurdity, but not an imposition, and don't matter too much. I think that any excuse the ref-team can create to kill off a high-level NPC should be taken, though...
- Jacob
What Bryony said about players needing to take a more active role in the guilds is very true - refs only have a limited amount of time, and that time is necessarily spent on the things the players are taking an interest in. Things that don't affect the lives of the PCs will almost certainly only exist nebulously. Now that characters are actively involved in the city's economy it will become more 'alive' - the same goes for Guilds. If your character has a long-term goal then let us know about it! Many things are achieved through lots of small steps, and if the refs are aware of what your character is working towards, and how, their chances of achieving it are increased dramatically.
2) A fully functional economy would be nice, but it's a lot of work. Some things can be done quite easily - we can define the cost of a loaf of bread, a labourer's day's wages, lodgings for the night... all these are things that characters should know, and give them a sense of the value of their money. The 'income' that characters get assumes that that is what's left over after they've paid for their living costs for the week. Having things such as swords and armour cost IC money is feasible, but would require a big re-think of the money system - although the sword licenses were a fairly good substitute. There are more imaginative things that can be done with money, once it starts to accrue, but most of these require characters to go out and find them; I believe that some characters may be rich enough to hire a linear party for themselves...
3) I don't believe that people have been going on Linears simply to get XP, and a well-writen linear should provide sufficient plot-hooks for all the characters that are going on it. It would help considerably if the linear writer(s) had some idea who was planning to go on the linear OOC before the day (or even before the interactive before), since this would allow more accurate lead-up, and more tailor-made plot.
I would also like to remind mages that the spell lists on the website are the traditional, well tried and tested spells that the colleges teach. Few students have the patience or dedication to research beyond those boundaries, and those who do keep their findings a closely guarded secret.
Regarding current spell lists: I'd like to think of the published spell lists as something we could print out a copy of, then burn them, pour water on the ashes, stamp on them a bit, then throw in the bin, in somewhat of a symbolic manner. I reckon that the current magic system is super complicated for what we get back out of it, and a modular magic system would be win. It should be easy enough to pull out the current system, and drop a MMS into place. CambridgeTreasureTrap/ModularMagicSystem?
Regarding economy: To set up a truely functioning economy would probably require the dedicated time of at least one Ref. Lots of grunt work, everyone will moan about it anyway, and it's more dull than writing Necromancer plot. It's only going to happen if someone want to do it.
Regarding background: There is lots of background written up. It's not very accessible. Before term starts, get the Player guides that have been written , take a paragraph from each, put it up as background. Keep up the Basic background page, it needs an overview of the last year. Character memories being only record of some events is good. There is the paper to back this up. Encourage people to write IC documents, and have them available in a library to facilitate sharing. Encourage people to write IC docuements and sell them so that they can spread around stuff without giving it to everyone. I have a character planned who iwll basically be buying and selling information, mainly to get BG stuff out in the open. However, as noted above, over detailing stuff for the sake of it seems dangerous, else we'll have 20 different characters going to 20 different pubs.
Regarding NPCs: A lot of the old high level NPCs have been quietly killed off. Most of the rest have suffered from quiet downstattings. Very few of these would ever turn up in the bar anyway. Last year bar NPCs were of generally levels 1-4. Occasionally mages popping up to 5 due to things like fogetting what spells are what level :-). I expect this gradual power reduction to continue.
Regarding Guild ranks: In (quite) short words, the character's level does not fully determine their rank within the guild. As bryony said, a proactive but lower level character may well get more reponsibility than a higher leveled but useless character. The apprentice/journeyman/master convention is a shorthand to avoid having to refer to people as 'an nth level mage'. If you have the balls, there is nothing to stop you claiming to be a master or whatever, but you may get called upon to back it up. You don't have to start as a member of your relevant guild. I'd advise people don't do it if they don't need to.
Regarding time-to-learn: Time to learn skills is good, but we don't want it to detract from time-to-do. TT is a small system, and that let's us play with DTs that aren't jsut check-the-box like Maelstrom. A lot of good plot has been created as a result of DT action, so restricting it would be bad.
Regarding sitting in the bar doing fuck all and getting XP: This seems to be the problem with XP, people can sit in the bar all night, do fuck all, and walk off with the same XP as people who were doing cool stuff. Ummm, not sure how to fix, but introducing a teaching/learning system would probably help.
--Snapdragon
--Edith
Is it worth noting at this point that XP-less system is an empty buzzword (you get 90 points of XP for every event you attend, it costs 90XP to learn the skill 'Treat Human', you must spend all the XP you get from an event before the next event, you can part learn skills). I think that any advancement system you care to specify will be isomorphic to an XP based system. Given that, I think that introducing a time resource would be good, requiring teaching of skills to reduce the time spent learning would be good, but stuff that either reduces the potential of freeform downtimes, or screws anyone already making use of a time resource (e.g. Alchemists) would be bad. --Snapdragon