Kangaroo and I concocted this idea fifteen minutes ago while discussing system changes. We think it works surprisingly well:
Proposals:
- Improved backstab to reduce the damage grade by 1, and to be moved to level 6
- Backstab to be renamed to "Critical Strike", the requirement to strike from behind removed, the timer changed to once per 10s flat, and different rules for blunt weapons removed - all critical strikes do +n through.
Reasoning:
The big issue with backstab is that it's the subterfuge class feature, but it's mostly only actually useful as a combat opener when people haven't been squaring off first. This makes it quite good for
PVP, great for shivving up the odd NPC in the bar, and really rubbish on linears. So what this does is it makes it a bit more flexible - you can now strike from in front (still to the torso, though) and
get the bonus as well. Suddenly, a subterfuger can move in with the rest of the line and actually do a respectable form of damage as they open the fight.
The change to improved backstab is because it does get drastically better. Pulling the damage grade down by one means that instead of easily accessible QUAD THROUGH by sword blow it becomes TRIPLE
THROUGH, which is a touch easier to defend against, and the level buff also helps out there. It would probably still balance at level 5, or possibly work well at level 7, and could maybe stand to be -2
instead of -1.
Backstab doesn't get significantly more powerful than it currently is for PVP, slows down on the ability to take on multiple people, but is more useful in most linear combat circumstances. So is basically
a better fit into a system that's primarily intended to cover linear fighting.
- I've never had much trouble finding an open enemy back on a linear encounter (and it brings a special kind of joy), especially when running around looking for opportunities with squishy subterfuger hits. It's a different combat style to warriors and I think it's in style for subterfugers not to open combat, at least from the front. --Chevron
- I think you may have something of a hard-skill in finding backs :) --Tea
- Excellent. People never have trouble counting to 10 seconds in a melee, so we should have more of that. --TimB
- I think Tim has a strong point. If you're looking at tweaking backstab, how about going in the other direction - drop the damage, but make it applicable to any blow you land on a back with a dagger, without a time limit? That said, I'm not convinced it's broken enough to need fixing. --Jacob.
- I'd disagree as this would likely lead to less complexity. Currently you have to remember who you've backstabbed and how long ago for each character you hit. This way you would have a single 10 second timer, no more complex than tracking status effects on yourself. --Jim
- The time limit was to strongly disincentivize scrabbling wildly at the only exposed back you'd found this encounter. It precedes the one-second rule, and it might now be possible to get rid of it safely. --NT
- Vastly increases the PVP alpha strike capability (oh gods I just used that sequence of words seriously). Not much is gonna survive "quad through, quad through" - and two hits is pretty easy from surprise. That's level 6, or level 4 and a 1-ingredient potion timed right. About the only thing I can see surviving that is a top-level Warrior who's double-bought even more hits and someone who's very very grateful that their friendly neighbourhood priest used Blessing IV on them. It might be a touch more balanced if Backstab was dropped a grade - first level being THROUGH from behind, then improving - but even then it's pretty damn scary. --MorkaisChosen
- So you balance it more like the old version I found on this wiki. Much lower damage, but repeatable, capping at DOUBLE or TRIPLE. Or allowing +degree on your first strike, and then any strike to the back to be THROUGH. No timers, all you have to remember is who you have already stabbed this fight. --Jim
Less THROUGH damage, more damage if you forgo THROUGH
I'd prefer a Backstab where on linears it really is about Absolutely Murdering That One Key Monster rather than randomly sprinkling a few extra degrees of damage across the fight at a worse rate than great weapon DOUBLE etc. The old backstab was much lower damage but repeatable, so you could drop something entirely using THROUGH damage without it being a 1-hit kill. I feel that VENOM does skew any balance argument over Backstab rather horribly. It always gets assumed that everyone using Backstab will inevitably have VENOM as well, but that's balancing the skill on everyone having either Alchemy or Income 1-2 solely as a weekly Venom Budget.
If THROUGH is such an issue, the current or proposed Backstab could be shifted to have a lower degree of THROUGH damage but an increased basic damage call. So, Backstab 1 would be TRIPLE or THROUGH for venom delivery. Backstab 2 would be QUAD or DOUBLE THROUGH. Significantly better against monsters, harder to do an instadrop on a PC with. EDIT: This would work really nicely with Tea's change as you have THROUGH to get past DAC, and +damage for if it's already gone. --Jim
- The thing about the current system is that you have to consider balance of things when they're used for PVP. Any PVP calculations can generally assume there's going to be at least venom involved. History has shown that if we ignore the PVP potential of stuff, then it can be used to just erase everybody, while if we balance for it, some stuff gets useless, or at least significantly worse, against monsters, backstab being one of the current examples. This is why I quite like potential changes such as this, as they make the skill better in PVM situations without also becoming more of a PVP murderskill. --Tea
- That's what I mean yeah. VENOM is a very easy and cheap PVP buff, but PVP attacks are a minority of the times Backstab or VENOM is used. That's what I mean by skewing things. It's unavoidable unless you give PCs defenses vs stuff that NPCs rarely have. The thing about the current Backstab is that it's a bit lame on its own but gains tremendously if you have Alchemy or 1 level in say Smite Soul, Green Magic or Smite Body. Because either you can HALT someone to set up your own opportunity to backstab, or follow it with supernatural THROUGH as a finisher as opposed to needing to get in 2-5 more hits. The current setup is both a suboptimal team player and a suboptimal assassin compared to stuff like "FREEZE 10 SINGLE SINGLE SINGLE" or repeat DOUBLEs from the spear you have ready to swing all the time. Being able to do more plain damage would make it better on a linear where the vast majority of things have more body hits than armour, and you're fighting alongside allies who don't call THROUGH. --Jim
- "Triple through, spirit triple through, by the stabby power of some guy with knives spirit single through" is a bit funny. :-) --MorkaisChosen
- The SPIRIT TRIPLE THROUGH needs to be on the next blow you make since casting the miracle, so this should come before the backstab. --Chevron
I swear this threading should be fixable to be more sensible... --Tea
- I have now edited the indents so that each idea for how to change backstab is a new paragraph, and comments on the idea stack below as bullet points. Bullet points are easier to read than indenting each new reply. I have not edited the text or other formatting of any posts but my own. --Jim