Beserk

This page is for some discussion of the issues surrounding the beserk skill, plus also for some observations I have found from playing a beserker for a couple of years now. My own views and prejudices are naturally reflected. This page is also going to be unfinished for a little while, due to my need to get some work done (so apologies if the stuff below is rather inarticulate, should you be reading this on Monday morning) -TimB

1) Beserk has amazing potential. From a characteristation perspective it is that wonderful thing: a skill which an entire character concept can come out of. I have had a lot of fun with the consequences of being a beserker as well- having with major self-control problems has got the character into trouble with the law and alienated friends. Thus it has created game and story, hopefully for other people too.

2) The trope is a genre classic of the type I think TT supports well.

3) You can just role play being a beserker without any mechanical skill to support it. I think in many systems that would be fine, but TT generally has an ethos of having flavoured skills like this which support tropes. Also, it is a simple observation that some players will always react differently to your character if the condition they are operating under is mechanical than if it is purely role played.

4) The current mechanical effect of granting an extra degree of damage is very powerful. Many discussions hinge on how to stack the greatest number of damage buffs on to a single character to make the most obscene call (sometimes resulting in ridiculous ideas like 'a warrior/subterfuger with a two handed sword, plus venom, going beserk and backstabbing someone'. Thankfully no-one seems to have been this lame in practice). Even without those edge cases, it is still a powerful skill, often simulating the warrior gaining the damage grade about three levels of Melee skill higher than they possess.

5) The downside of beserking is sometimes poorly role played, including by me. At the 2011/12 PBB I found myself going beserk, then a few seconds later trying to shout tactical instructions to someone. Lame. Realising what I'd just done I dropped the extra damage, but there is currently no mechanical force behind any role playing guidelines.

6) Previous iterations of beserker tried to enforce behaviour on characters while beserk. I am told this had potential for acrimonious OC arguments (eg 'you were supposed to attack the closest person, but that person was closer than me...'). No-one likes OC arguments, so the system was simplified. Simple is generally good.

7) There are seperate discussions about whether the extra damage gained by Warriors from the Melee skill is overpowered. I am trying to keep this discussion seperate for the moment.

Trying to draw the strands of that together, I think Beserk is A Good Thing. It adds flavour to the system and is a lot of fun (hopefully for everyone). However, the benefit it provides is very powerful, with only nebulous mechanical downsides.

There is also a matter of timing for when beserk triggers, which drastically effects its utility. If you go beserk at the start of a combat, you will gain the maximum benefit. Combined with high warrior armour, this might mean you finish the fight sufficiently quicker to avoid taking any real damage. Certainly I have observed that I tend to take less damage when beserk, as enemies have far less time to do anything back to me before I have chopped them up.

Having said that, the times when I feel a use of Rage is justified for Abel are often mid-way through a fight, or towards the end (especially when linearing). Seeing your friends hit the floor is a classic time to flip out. At that point, the beserk has a lot less effect, as the monsters have already done significant damage to the party it it may be too late to make a difference- especially if you are badly hurt yourself.

Having rambled, if we did want to change, beserk, what options might there be for alternatives? Some ideas below:

1) Healing Rage. Versions of this are used in Ornithocracy and Insurrection. When the Rage is triggered, the beserker is healed to some extent. In both of the systems mentioned where this is done, the Beserker is healed completely, plus gaining some other benefits (Insurrection- resistance to fear, call Double. Ornithocracy- regain use of all 'use per hour' skills). However, in both of those systems there are also dramatic and negative side effects to Beserking. Most notably, that the violence is indiscriminate and there is an extremely high risk of friendly fire. Also, with Insurrection the beserker takes a critical wound to the chest once the rage finishes (a TT equivalent might be either to take a 'subdue sufficient' to the chest or temporarily suffering from Weakness). If a healing mechanic was used, I would suggest that the healing received can be balanced by any down side. Depending on what, if any, downsides are bolted on to the use of beserk, the level of healing given can be tweaked accordingly. I'd give something like a 'Cure Sufficient' if the beserker is going to go into an indiscriminate rage and then collapse exhausted afterwards, whereas maybe a Cure 5 if they are going to have a much lesser downside.

One side benefit to this version of beserking is that it makes Beserk much more useful in the 'last ditch' situation where everything is going wrong and people you care about are downed. The fight goes badly, but you go 'rargh' and beat up your enemies (it starts to fill a similar niche to Ultimate Faith and Over Casting, or ill-advised alchemy).

The trouble is that if it heals all locations but only subdues the torso, you could heal your entire body and restore a limb to use at the cost of temporary damage to one location. I'd suggest temporary extra hits or global armor to represent a surge of effort as opposed to genuine healing. Possibly even on a 60 second timer per level of Rage Skill. The more you spend on berzerk, the greater endurance your PC gets. Hits would temporarily restore a location to use and wear off. Global armor would mean for example you'd still have a useless arm, but could take enough hits elsewhere to fight on a while. Plus Subdue isn't particularly dangerous if you've won, but if a location gets crippled because the bonus hits wore off, then you're actually in trouble. I think it's better to place the risks on the berzerker not friendly fire, as there's no grey area that hits problem (6). --Jim

(again with no reference to the roleplay side of the equation) The way to avoid a potential net heal effect is have it so that on berserking the beserker heals/gains +X hits to every location. On the end of the berserk rage the beserker looses that many hits from whatever total they have remaining on each location. The only way to get a net heal then is if on hits loss they go into negatives/bleeding. On the other hand this does have the con of it then only being mechanically worth activating if the character would have instead dropped so possibly isn't especially a good plan, indeed in some ways it then might as well be activate this when you are about to get dropped. --Malselene

2) Resistance to status effects and/or mind control. This is the classic 'too angry to stop' fantasy trope. Conan fans might see a relation to the iconic barbarian's hatred for magic and his indomitable free will being able to shrug off wizardry. Where I have a big concern is that this covers the largest single hole in the armoury of the current breed of TT warriors, who are most vulnerable to Freeze/Halt?/Repel? et al. It risks making them dangerously hard to stop, which is arguably a lot more powerful than the ability to do extra damage. Possibly a better balanced version would be akin to the healing Rage above; rather than having a blanket immunity to status effects while enraged, the warrior can call on their inner rage to shrug off one status effect per use. This would be less powerful on linears, but a very strong defence against some pvp strategies (as it is reactive to a spell which has just been cast on you, so when your would-be killer Freezes you, you can turn around and stab them).

Perhaps, if like DAC it automatically triggered from the first effect you take. That's suitable for letting the angry lunatic get closer but you can't use it tactically like Surefootedness, thus avoiding problem (5) --Jim

3) Great strength. The use of beserk could allow the warrior to call some form of status effect based weapon blows. I would suggest that this is something the warrior currently lacks completely, so therefire offers a potentially huge upstat (my thinking being that to gain access to a weapon which is normally the exclusive privilege of other classes is a major benefit). Balancing power is also very hard; being able to call one strikedown by blow is very weak, whereas doing it by every blow is crazy powerful. Possibly the way to change this is to replace the current XP mechanic for beserk. Rather than one expensive skill, with moderately priced upgrades, it could be more like duelling with a low cost available at every level. For example, 5 XP per buy, each purchase allowing one blow per day of single striekdown (numbers completey arbitrary there).

Wouldn't this make the problem of "tactics or RP" even worse, as it's even more a choice of when to do something for maximum effect in combat? --Jim

4) Expanding on a point from (1), gain 1 degree of damage, roleplaying effects and go to zero on chest / chest and arms / all locations once the fight ends, regardless of any other factors (you may still be taken to zero and unconsciousness by losing hits during the fight.) This makes Berserk just as good as a last-ditch option, with the significant downside of being costly after the fight, with the distinct possibility that the advantages won't be worth the cost. Downside that it might take berserk further from something that relies on triggers and more of a resource to be spent when it is of most advantage, but I think we are trying to have the best of both worlds wrt those two things anyway. Does make Berserk more attractive the lower hits you are on, which I think is fitting. I think subdual damage won't really cut it here, as it will be as big a disadvantage to linears as having to stop to repair your armour after the fight. Further, the fact that you know you are goin to be zero'd after the fight anyway will probably lead to people being a bit more reckless on locations they're not as concerned about at that moment, which is a nice bonus too. --Chevron

Downside suggestion: After the berserk rage is over the beserker is down a round of hits for the rest of the day due to exhaustion (beserking multiple time makes them down multiple rounds of hits). Taking damage may be costly, but it's fairly easily circumvented by moar potions. --Malselene

I think I quite like this idea. --Chevron

Alternate downside: Your max bleed count is reduced by 20 seconds for the rest of the day due to bloodloss (multiple berserk rages leads to very short bleed count) --Malselene

Are you suggesting that this would happen any time a berzerker raged, or just for the mechanical one? if it was any time it would get costly fast, but it would promote more specific triggers because they wouldn't want to fire it off for no reason and it would be dangerous for a rage to happen at a bad time, say just before the boss encounter of a linear. You could even get to the point where you'd not want to choose to rage in case you then were driven into a rage later for no benefit. This seems like it could really add some interesting choices. Would probably need a cap of "you cannot go down to fewer than 2 hts per loc" so a PC won't get exhausted to death. --Jim

It was a random suggestion of a possible downside. Not a proposal for a complete set of mechanics so your question doesn't exactly have an answer. However in general you get a mechanical downside for a mechanical effect. Role playing a bit berserky is something that can be done without any skills and hence I would expect that anyone should be able to continue to do so, if they felt like it, without any downsides. -- Malselene

I'm slightly confused here that all the points at the top of the page seem to be based around current Berserk being a little too good because it gives extra damage whilst the downsides are too easy to just not play, but then the bottom of the page seems to think that the solution to this is to add in extra really quite snacky stuff (cure sufficient, status immunities etc)? I think that the best way to balance Berserk is the friendly fire issue that your friends really dont want you to meet any of your triggers because then they have to deal with you as well as the enemy and you are standing closer to them, and to ensure that OOC we have a clear shared understanding of what this is expected to mean in play (much as most of the other rules are enforced by peer pressure/refs having a quiet word if the player isn't keeping to the spirit but likewise if they are, peer pressure also says that people shouldn't complain if it hits their pc). Issues with when Rage gets triggered may be due to a vagueness about the triggers (I don't know the specific triggers for characters currently in play)? Eg: triggers like 'if any of my locations are reduced to 1' or 'if my husband is struck' are a lot more quantifiable than 'if someone pisses me off' and if they clearly occur without a rage being induced then a floating ref can gently remind the player (much as they might for a spirit headache) that it is time to be rampaging now. This also means that you can't just choose to berserk, a mechanical trigger has to actually occur, so you might eg: need to get a friend to cut your off-arm to 1 to set you off and then they had better leg it! Similarly set minimum times for the rage (which can be reduced by buying control rage skills) mean that low level berserkers are more loose cannon (lots of rp, lots of pvp potential) and higher ones can become more effective fighters with targetted flip-outs, and that there is an actual mechanical 'don't drop out of it too soon/when you feel like it' which can be enforced to prevent 'pisstaking'/fail (which becomes relevant when you run out of enemies if your own party don't all get very submissive very fast, or drop you). --Zebbie

I wouldn't want Berserk to have a mandatory friendly-fire problem. With the skill in the system, I like having the option to play it in different ways- so there's the classic "RAAAAAARGH KILL EVERYTHING," but you can also do the mother-bear style "RAAAAAARGH GET AWAY FROM MY CHILDREN" or whatever- and if Berserk necessitates an inability to distinguish friend from foe, that simply doesn't work, as you flip out to protect your children, then attack them. Not cool. As John on the PBB, I used Berserk for the first time, and there was a definite difference- I was fighting far less defensively, and got myself dropped a lot quicker than would otherwise have been the case- but friendly fire wouldn't work for him, and I think options are important. --MorkaisChosen

For clarity, I am not setting out a thesis of 'this is a problem, here is what I think the solution is'. This page was created because the subject was already being discussed and I don't like the idea of people trying to remove it altogether just because they think it is overpowered (as I really like the existence of the skill in some mechanical form and wish to preserve it). I was hoping to make clear that I think each of the suggested alternatives has its own problems. Also answering Jim's point below, it should not be assumed that I favour any of these options just because I've set them out. If I do have a preference, it is broadly in line with what I think Zebbie is setting out, that we could look at tightening up the existing skill. -TimB

From what I read, TimB would rather lose the damage and get defensive stuff that is limited in uses or has drawbacks. I think Chevron's idea would work as Subdual if it could trigger in combat. "For 120 seconds, gain 1 degree of damage. At the end of this period, take a SUBDUE SUFFICIENT to the torso." Good if you need to finish a fight or for a blitz, but in a protracted fight, your PC will exhaust themselves and become a liability.

In general adding a surprise new duration to the system is probably a bad plan. Buff durations are almost all five minutes/one encounter or inflict. --Malselene

Yeah, there is that, I didn't think it was a perfect idea but I couldn't think of a simpler way to have a chance for it to be dangerous to the user. Maybe "If you go X seconds without making a melee attack, your rage wears off and you are subdued/suffering from Weakness for 5 minutes or until the end of the encounter". This would introduce a soft mechanism for them being risky to be around (they may whack you to keep the rage going) and reward reckless RP because they'll want to charge to keep themselves able to deal damage and stay raging. A short countdown like for status effects would be easier to handle. Can anyone think of a better method? I really like the idea of a Berzerk rage encouraging the player to use it or lose it. --Jim

Otherwise, I had a thought along the lines of "You deal +1 degree of natural damage and gain (X temporary hits to all locations/X points of non-regenerating DAC). You take one extra degree of damage from all melee attacks." You'd be able to finish something faster, you'll have a bit more temporary defense to close in, but it will hurt you to do so. Removes the worry about not being reckless enough in combat as the vulnerability does that. The problem I could see is it incentivising a player to fight more defensively not less. --Jim

As above, no, I am really not saying I want to lose the damage. I am saying that there are other options which come with their own balance issues. Personally I dislike damage reduction/increasing effects, as they are a bastard to keep track of in a fight. -TimB

The idea that was being kicked around in the refteam revolved around (physical) resistance, and then bleeding when the berserk wore off. We ideally need to have a WP to poke various ideas and see what works? --Andy

I was just about to suggest that. ;-) Notes: still something to use at the start of a fight, unless it's a long one; good image, as then they *can* charge in, uncaring for personal safety; if physical only, tactically fun, though it may make ESW and EMWII a bit good. --MorkaisChosen

Could be resistance to melee and ranged attacks, regardless of colour. --Jim

Metaphysically complicated: there's a bunch of ways to make attacks that are solely spiritual or magical, along the lines of "Next damage call is foo", which shouldn't be resistable, but flameblade possibly should be. Best to have it nommable by combatmages, I think. --Tea

I'm not sure that "I can still do Single to Berserking Warriors with one specific weapon merely by using a level four skill and 10xp" is really hugely broken, all in all. --Tea

I think a skill which makes you do relatively complex maths while (by definition) in melee combat is a pretty unworkable idea. Keeping track of hits is hard enough already- if I'd been trying to mentally downgrade damage on the final encounter of the PBB I'd probably have died while frozen to the spot frantically counting. -TimB

True, but that encounter was a little mean with a mixture of venom spirit double, half and double through is terribly typical on most linears. In the bar that would be a bastard to work on though. --Andy

That's why I was thinking a temporary armor or hits per loc buff is easier to handle. For global armorpoints, you count them off as you take them, and when it's gone, the rage ends as do your bonuses. Any negative effects then kick in. It has the advantage of simplicity, and adds a risk to berzerking in that it could exhaust you mid combat. With hits per loc, you lose them at the end of the fight and if that takes a location to 0, it starts bleeding. --Jim

5) As a suggested solution to the berserk is a bit good side of the problem (with no attempts to address any issues with roleplay). Bring berserk a little more in line with other skills in other classes that have similar effects. (Or as I’d personally do it, compare against speak tengwar, income 3 and then buying scrolls of flameblade which is something open to all classes).

• Make the extra degree of damage it grants unnatural.
• Possibly make it require five seconds worth of angry shouting/screaming before use.
• Also I have never understood why extra rage is almost half the price of the initial buy of berserk when getting an extra degree of damage for two fights is strictly twice as good as only having it in one fight.

--Malselene

I like the '5 seconds of psyching yourself up' idea in that it serves the same warm-up period and hint that something's about to kick off as a vocal does. Unnatural damage makes it great for a personal rampage but doesn't let you buff up to as ridiculous damage. -Jim

Yes, that was the point. --Malselene

This is probably pointless rambling on the subject of triggers, as I can't actually think of a problem or a point, but more an observation I made when I was considering playing a berserking orc. Namely you can choose a berserk trigger that you are likely to experience more than once on a linear (in this case being a humacti their trigger would have been undead/vivamortions). Logistically on an undead bash that character would have gone (role-play) berserk in close to every encounter but would have only been able to apply (mechanical) berserk in one fight. As by the rules you can pick when you use the mechanical berserk it could be happily saved until the final encounter. Now take "being in a fight" as a trigger... Hmm the point might be that the rules as they currently are don't actually require highly specifically defined triggers, just you should tell the refs what might make you flip out, and this is probably a good thing due to otherwise making it an advantage to be slightly meta with picking triggers. On the other hand this type of problem wouldn't exist if there was an actual downside to berserking. --Malselene

Second Ramble, again mostly has no point beyond cataloging similar things in other systems. --Malselene

• Berserk type one (current CUTT): Beserk is limited by how many times the skill has been bought
• Berserk type two (insurrection): Berserk is limited by the mechanical downsides of using the skill (loss of stamina, ending it with a crit to the vitals)
• Berserk type three (Ornithocracy): Berserk is limited by not allowing it to be invoked by choice (instead being a full heal on being dropped)